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As an outsider to the Republican Party, it's interesting to see what's going on. I think a lot of the membership to that party are upset, and I think their leadership (if one can call them that) are trying to capitalize on that discontent, for their own little agendas, but I think it's going to come back to bite them in the butt, and in fact it might be coming back already.
A prominent Utah Republican got nailed earlier this week, and while I know nothing of who did this, and don't condone the behavior, I have a strong suspicion that it will turn out to be some pissed off conservative, Glenn Beck fan and Tea Party demonstrator. You can read the story here.
The way I see it, people are justifiably upset with how the country is being run, but the problems aren't Republican or Democrat problems, they're politician problems. What I find amusing is that some politicians are trying to make out that the problem lies with the other parties politicians, but as they point those problems out, there is a good chance that people will start looking at them and see the same things. It's kind of like the anti-gay, homophobic preacher man who gets caught with his gay lover... Tragic in a way, but ironically hilarious for those of us with disturbed minds.
Of course it might work though too... The reason we have a politician problem is that people don't care and don't take the time to inform themselves, and so the ignorant masses rally around the scoundrels with the shiny badges, or who their puppet masters tell them to rally around, and the cycle continues.
You make some fascinating assumptions here, Koda. Let me get this straight: Republican leader's property is vandalized, so a) the perp is clearly another Republican, and b) probably even a Glenn Beck fan!
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that while you're so quick to decry talk radio's tendency to speculate and purvey rumor, yet you do the exact same thing. I remind you of the first time I called you out on this- when you claimed that Glenn Beck called Obama the Antichrist.
When I asked you to back this up, you backpedaled and eventually decided that while Beck probably didn't say this, you think you remember him implying it, and that's one of the reasons you detest the man.
So what do you do? Without any evidence or familiarity with Utah County in-politics, you strongly imply that it's either a tea partier or a Glenn Beck fan.
I don't even need to go into the fact that local politics do not mirror national politics, and that both Glenn Beck and the tea partiers are squarely focused on national politics, with little or no interest at the county and municipal levels.
And what do you mean by Republican leadership? National party leadership? State? Local? Or are you implying that Satan's spawns Limbaugh and Beck (who is Libertarian and is shunned by mainstream Republicans on the national level) are the party's leaders?
Your second to last paragraph, it seems, protests hypocrisy. Kind of like the anti-conservative blogger who professes hate for rumors and baseless accusations...and gets caught promoting rumors and making baseless accusations.
Son of a ... I have a whole nice long reply written, and due to some blogger error it got dumped.
ReplyDeleteHere's the highlights... And just in case you confuse my tone with that of someone who is offended or taking issue with your response... Read as though it was written with a smile and wink!
Nothing works quite as well as an off handed Glenn Beck comment to get you engaged in the discussion. Am I right? I hope you don't mind my doing that, but I miss the friendly banter we share on occasion, and I suspect rabid Hannity Fan, or disillusioned Ditto head just wouldn't get the job done!
My reasons for my suspicion as to the political leanings of the perp in Utah County incident...
Would you agree that there is a strong wave of anger sweeping the conservative electorate right now?
Would you agree that shows like Mr. Becks only add fuel to that wave of anger?
Local vs. National politics aside, I have a hard time imagining that a democrat would waste their time going after the lawn of a local Republican chair? Actually, are there even enough Dems in Utah county to pull off an operation such as this? And if there were, I suspect they might well have chosen a different word...
I could be wrong - especially since as I admitted, I know nothing about the incident nor the motivations for it. But if I had to give it odds based on basic observations on how people are reacting to things... I would say 9:1 that it was probably some conservative type person who knows less about politics than me -- if that's even possible.
Do you have an opinion on what the motivations might have been, and what odds would you give for it being a bent out of shape democrat or an tea party lovin' conservative.
Long story short, I don't think my suspicion is entirely without merit, and I don't know if I'd go as far as calling the way I wrote it an accusation. Actually, you made the claim that I assumed that the perp was "Clearly a Republican" Now who's making baseless accusations? Seriously now... the word Republican doesn't even occur in the list of words I used to describe the type of perp I suspected it might have been, and yet you claim I made the assumption?!? - No need to apologize, I'll just assume you were just a little kerfuddled after my Glenn Beck comment ;-)
If it turns out that I am wrong in my very loose suspicion about who did it, which I very well could be. You can rest assured that I will post a full apology and admission of my error, and then, like the Obama/Anti-christ error which I made, you can feel free to bring it up again whenever you feel the need to assert your being right and/or my being wrong on occasion ;-)
My leadership comments... Are the leaders of the Republican Party not trying to capitalize on the discontent generated by the tea party movement? I'd be shocked if they weren't but as with everything else, I could be wrong.
And are you not mildly amused by the hypocrisy on both sides of the aisle? It's like the Bank Bail-out and the Stimulus Package. Essentially the same thing in many respects, but yet you've got both sides of the aisle hollering about the package passed by the other side. You almost want to pull them aside, and give them a gentle reminder that they did the exact same thing.
OK - copying this out to notepad, just in case it bombs again!
"Son of a ... I have a whole nice long reply written, and due to some blogger error it got dumped."
ReplyDeleteThat sucks. It's why, as a professional blog commenter, I started going the notepad, ctrl-c route years ago:)
"Nothing works quite as well as an off handed Glenn Beck comment to get you engaged in the discussion. Am I right?"
Well, yes and no. My little windows of spare time are rare and unpredictable. I don't specifically pick out the Beck posts to comment on. It's just that I don't like commenting on blogs unless I've either got some good smack to talk or I know my stuff.
"Would you agree that there is a strong wave of anger sweeping the conservative electorate right now?"
Yes, but its roots aren't what many non-conservatives think they are. Example: Bob Bennett. What were the headlines? 'Conservative Republican Senator Not Conservative Enough For Tea Parties.' What the media reports don't explain is that the tea partiers' beef is specific to two facets of the conservative platform: small government and limited spending. Why was the anti-abortion, pro-religion Bennett ousted? He voted for the bailouts. Period.
"Would you agree that shows like Mr. Becks only add fuel to that wave of anger?
Yes.
"But if I had to give it odds based on basic observations on how people are reacting to things... I would say 9:1 that it was probably some conservative type person"
Based on what observations? Verbal reactions or actual physical reactions? Please show me one report of vandalism or violence committed by a conservative tied to the tea parties. Or conservatives in general. I'm not saying it's never happened, but has it really happened enough to make you immediately think a Beck fan/tea partier did it?
"Do you have an opinion on what the motivations might have been, and what odds would you give for it being a bent out of shape democrat or an tea party lovin' conservative."
I am uninformed on local politics. They are a very different animal than national politics, and that's my first point: The Beckites and TPers don't care about local politics. The article you linked to was vague on the reasons for people not liking this county GOP chair, but from the context it seems more likely this wasn't issue-based, but administrative infighting.
I actually tend to vote Democrat in local politics, because their power in certain arenas is can be so different than on the national level (a Dem city councilman can't put a liberal on the bench of the Supreme Court, for example, but he can ensure adequate green space in my neighborhood).
"Actually, you made the claim that I assumed that the perp was "Clearly a Republican" Now who's making baseless accusations?"
You led your post with references to Republican in-fighting. If you didn't outright claim it was a Republican, you certainly implied it, and that's what perked me up. You hate when people imply stuff, and yet you did. Further, you all but concluded that the perpetrator was a Glenn Beck fan or a tea party type. How many Dems in those two groups? I think your implication that a Republican did this is pretty clear.
"Are the leaders of the Republican Party not trying to capitalize on the discontent generated by the tea party movement? I'd be shocked if they weren't but as with everything else, I could be wrong."
Yes, but maybe not how you think. GOP leadership (national, not local) is trying desperately to co-opt the tea party, because they have the most to fear from them. However, I don't see how this is at all applicable to the point of your post. GOP leadership doesn't want to foment anger- they want to identify with the tea parties in order to get re-elected.
professional blog commenter - Nice!!
ReplyDeleteI think Bennet got ousted because of his stance on healthcare reform as well. He wasn't pro-Obama from what I understand, but I hear he proposed a similar plan - It's actually been fun watching the adds for and against him on facebook. I suspect he'll probably get replaced by someone who is significantly more right leaning, but I for one will take it, just to clear out some of the dead wood.
My observations on the likely hood of the incident being a TP member are simply linked to the level of anger and discontent I've observed with that movement. They're an angry bunch, and anger doesn't necessarily result in rational actions.
It could possibly have been administrative in-fighting too... perhaps I'll split my odds 1:3:6 - Lib, Repub based Administrative Problems, TP Conservative.
I purposefully used conservative in the description of the perp rather than Republican. I think - and this is simply my opinion here - that many conservatives might view the label Republican label as somewhat of a bad thing. I would put Glenn Beck in this category - uber conservative, but probably not thrilled about being labeled a Republican (I could be wrong here though.) Personally I don't think I would categorize him as a Libertarian either though, although I guess that's his call, not mine, but unless he's made a 180 on his stance towards Islam and the war on terror, I'm not sure most true Libertarians would want him in their camp either.
Local politics... Now granted the city I live in is a a little wacky on the political front, but local politics was impacted by national politics in the elections last year. One of the mayoral candidates big beefs with his rival was "She's a Democrat" and "She supports Barack Hussein Obama". Although you may have a point because his opponent won, but I credited that more to do with him resting on his laurels after a good showing in the primaries, and his opponent working her ass off!
And I would agree 100% on TP being a huge threat to the Republican Party. They've effectively splintered the right hand side of the aisle group into moderates and extreme right wingers. And I don't think that split will do either group any good. Ultimately I think we need a balance. An overwhelming majority from either side will never be a good thing.
I hate to keep focusing on Beck here (because there's a lot I can't stand about the guy), but if i can clarify something, I will.
ReplyDelete"I would put Glenn Beck in this category - uber conservative."
See, that depends on how you define conservatism. Small government and limited spending are just two of its many facets, and in the Republican Party they're pretty minor facets.
Most people who lean left would have classified Bush as uber-conservative. But was he really? He was pro-amnesty for illegals, he fought a pansy war on terror (more on that later), he was a big spender, and he was big government.
Look at Dennis Miller, another talker I dig. He's a Hollywood guy, socially very liberal, pro gay marriage, non-religious, doesn't care too much about abortion. But he's a hawk on terrorism and big government, so he's labeled a right-wing radical.
So I think we need to be careful when we label somebody conservative or liberal.
"but [Beck is] probably not thrilled about being labeled a Republican (I could be wrong here though.)"
He hates being labeled a Republican, and frankly Republicans don't like people labeling him Republican. Beck describes himself as a conservative libertarian.
"but unless he's made a 180 on his stance towards Islam and the war on terror, I'm not sure most true Libertarians would want him in their camp either."
I wouldn't say he's made a 180 on at least the wars (because then he'd be Cindy Sheehan), but he has changed his tune. He was once a "neocon," or a pro-nation building conservative. He's not any more. His philosophy now mirrors what mine has always been-- Don't go to war unless you're willing to do what it takes to win it. And more often than not, what it takes to win ain't pretty. So choose wisely. If you go to war and chicken out, as we most definitely have, then pull out. Now. Crap or get off the pot. Sitting there forever will just make your butt stick to the seat.
Beck's views on Islam as a religion are actually in line with the libertarian view: Keep church and state separate, because like what will happen in Europe soon, Islam is growing. And by sheer demographic force, Islam will be as pervasive later as Christianity is now. So if your government is propping a dominant religious philosophy, and that philosophy someday becomes Islam-- uh, bad news.
I pay attention to party in local politics because there are just certain things one party does better than the other. I want a Republican running my town's budget, and that's fine because Joe town clerk (R) isn't going to send my kid to war. Jane city planner (D) can't raise my tax rates.
To bring this full circle, what's-his-face Oldroyd in Provo simply isn't a target for Beck's audience or the tea parties, or really anybody with that mindset.